Beyond the Purchase

Transcript

00:01.04
Natalija Pavic
Hello, welcome to the show. I’m so excited you’re here. um And you know, before we get going, tell me who you are what you do, because we had a fantastic meeting at Shop Talk and I’m just jazzed that we were able to stay in contact and have this conversation.

00:15.41
Elizabeth Schmidt
Me too. Thank you for having me. I’m stoked to be here. i am Elizabeth Schmidt and I’m a digital marketer. I’ve been in marketing for almost 20 years.

00:26.69
Elizabeth Schmidt
Started at my first startup that ended up selling to Disney, which was incredible. And we were the in-house agency of record for Disney, social media agency. So we were actually responsible for acquiring all of Disney’s fan pages on Facebook away from the fans because the fans started it, which is wild, which is kind of you know reminiscent of a culture of of habit that we’re seeing even today within the fan ecosystem.

00:44.59
Natalija Pavic
Yeah.

00:51.30
Natalija Pavic
yeah

00:53.09
Elizabeth Schmidt
But I’ve been across social media, digital marketing, email, SMS, you know I know all the mediums, all of the the modalities, and and now I’m the head of marketing at Future Commerce.

01:04.74
Natalija Pavic
That’s so exciting and Future Commerce is such an amazing publication. We’ll get into that, but I have an icebreaker for you, which is what’s an unpopular opinion that you have? Yeah.

01:15.36
Elizabeth Schmidt
We love unpopular opinions and good Lord, I have so many. ah So, you know, mine often end up being about social.

01:26.02
Elizabeth Schmidt
And i know you and I have have had this discussion before and i did I did have a previous unpopular opinion, but I want to shift it a little bit. Can we just for a moment talk about LaBubu?

01:39.96
Natalija Pavic
I, hey, I don’t know what that is. i think

01:42.60
Elizabeth Schmidt
Oh my God, even better.

01:45.12
Natalija Pavic
You got me. I feel like I’ve missed something. Mm-hmm.

01:48.23
Elizabeth Schmidt
Even better. This is amazing. So these are these tiny little characters that are like a plush doll that are basically charms because they come on a, on a plastic or they come on a hook.

01:59.10
Elizabeth Schmidt
You can basically attach them to your bag, to your backpack, to your accessory. And they’re about to be a billion dollar business. They were made popular by a Korean ah K-pop band.

02:11.58
Natalija Pavic
Okay.

02:11.68
Elizabeth Schmidt
ah One of the heads of of the band posted about it. And since then, it’s just been all the rage across Gen Alpha and Gen Z. And everybody is is attempting to acquire one.

02:22.42
Elizabeth Schmidt
They are Gen Z’s Beanie Baby.

02:25.01
Natalija Pavic
Oh, okay. Okay.

02:26.29
Elizabeth Schmidt
And it is wild to see what people are doing with these toys. And I can’t stand them.

02:31.94
Natalija Pavic
Yeah.

02:32.86
Elizabeth Schmidt
I mean, we’re seeing photos of of individuals that have designer handbags and they’re adding these libuboo little plush charms to these like Birkins.

02:40.06
Natalija Pavic
yeah Yeah.

02:41.92
Elizabeth Schmidt
And so you you have basically the the financial equivalent of a car on your arm and you’re attaching this like plush doll to it.

02:47.70
Natalija Pavic
Yeah.

02:51.88
Elizabeth Schmidt
And that it’s just wild to me, but it also showcases a consistent trend of I want to accessorize my accessories. and And we’ve seen it with the road phone case that allows you to attach a lip gloss to it.

03:07.30
Natalija Pavic
Yeah.

03:07.73
Elizabeth Schmidt
So your phone case is then like your makeup bag.

03:07.82
Natalija Pavic
yeah

03:10.19
Natalija Pavic
yeah

03:10.91
Elizabeth Schmidt
You’ve seen it with the Stanley mugs and their collaboration with Post Malone, which is like a fatigue wrap and pockets and chains on your fricking Stanley mug to drink water and make it cooler somehow.

03:18.52
Natalija Pavic
Right.

03:24.14
Elizabeth Schmidt
So accessorizing accessories and is like a deep thing that’s been going on for years now. And and we’re just seeing that it’s just really pervasive across across generations. And I can’t stand them, but but there’s videos of people that are actually giving their LeBubu plush dolls manicures and adding long nails and then adding charms to those nails and then matching their own nails to their LeBubu’s nails and then dressing it up in Prada

03:41.75
Natalija Pavic
Oh. ah

03:49.45
Elizabeth Schmidt
clothing and shoes and bags. And and so they’re like one upping their labubus. It is profound.

03:57.80
Natalija Pavic
um I just feel like, yeah, I mean, ah get accessorizing accessories. and just feel like if we can do that, can’t we just give women pockets? hey Like, it feels like we’re getting, like, I wouldn’t have to have pockets on my Stanley if I had pockets on my clothes, you know what I mean?

04:09.28
Elizabeth Schmidt
Yes.

04:14.01
Elizabeth Schmidt
Yes. And not pockets that only fit half of your hand, please.

04:17.54
Natalija Pavic
Right, yeah, what’s the point of that?

04:18.75
Elizabeth Schmidt
The full hand, even maybe up to the forearm a little would be nice.

04:21.30
Natalija Pavic
Yeah, yeah, yeah, so…

04:22.75
Elizabeth Schmidt
Man pockets. Why do they get the deep pockets?

04:25.74
Natalija Pavic
And why did they take them away to begin with? It’s honestly, it’s a conspiracy. You know what? They’re going to try and tell us that they never did, that they were never there. It’s like, okay, well, then that’s getting into some ah conspiracy theories, which we won’t, we won’t get into that.

04:38.97
Natalija Pavic
But, well, you know what? Thank you for bringing that trend to me. I’m going to go and check it out and, um and see, see what I think about it.

04:45.29
Elizabeth Schmidt
Highly recommend, it’s wild.

04:48.87
Natalija Pavic
But um future commerce, tell me a little bit about what you guys do.

04:51.06
Elizabeth Schmidt
Yeah. Yeah. So Future Commerce is like a culture magazine, ah digital culture magazine, but we also have in-person experiences. It’s it’s a ah really incredible destination, futurecommerce.com, where you can go and learn about the future of commerce.

05:08.54
Natalija Pavic
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

05:08.95
Elizabeth Schmidt
And Future Commerce believes that commerce is culture. Commerce drives our culture forward. it influences culture. The two are inextably inextricably intertwined. And so all of the articles, editorial, podcasts, and in-person experiences that that we create just cultivate those conversations, you know, and and it’s oftentimes looking into the future through through commerce thought leadership.

05:35.54
Elizabeth Schmidt
It’s interviewing commerce leaders. It’s looking at what individuals that are leading these major large retail brands and e-commerce brands, what are they doing and how are they, how are they driving culture forward and how are they responding to, to culture and, and what kinds of things are they investing in for the future?

05:54.45
Elizabeth Schmidt
And, and so if you are, or if you touch e-commerce in any way or retail in any way, You want to subscribe to our newsletter. you want to You want to read the thought leadership on our website. You want to just involve yourself in this world because what what our writers and our our CEO and CRO, our two co-founders, Philip And Brian, what they’re doing is is really what no one else is doing. And and they’re really looking at the future of of what we’re going to see in the next five, 10 years.

06:26.90
Elizabeth Schmidt
and And their predictions are over 90% accurate over the last three years, which has been incredible to see, you know.

06:32.27
Natalija Pavic
Wow.

06:34.40
Elizabeth Schmidt
They predicted the continued rise and success of Costco, which we’ve seen. They predicted the fall of Joanne Fabrics, which we’ve seen. And and they they really they really are experts in the space. and And it’s been helpful for me just as a digital marketer, even to better understand the commerce industry and the retail industry simply by being involved with this company. So I’m grateful to…

06:56.38
Natalija Pavic
It’s interesting because, um you know, you guys have a lot of deep conversations with retailers and you’re in, you you’re there on the ground, literally facilitating, you know, you guys host like round tables and exact dinners. And so you’re really, really close to everything that’s happening in the industry.

07:14.42
Natalija Pavic
um And so you are doing predictions and I see the book behind you, Laura. ah Tell me a little bit about, and we can talk about predictions from, 2030. I don’t know if that’s part of lore and we can talk about lore separately.

07:29.78
Elizabeth Schmidt
Yeah, I mean, let’s talk about it all. ah So Lore is this year’s annual printed journal from Future Commerce. They come out with a new printed journal every year. And they’ve been doing this for the last few years.

07:41.07
Elizabeth Schmidt
Last year was a multiplayer brand and, and this year is lore and we’re already working on next year’s, which is really exciting. And I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna drop the title to that just yet.

07:50.56
Natalija Pavic
yeah

07:53.13
Elizabeth Schmidt
I’ll let, I’ll let the team do that.

07:54.79
Natalija Pavic
All right.

07:55.49
Elizabeth Schmidt
But lore is really about the myth behind brands. So if you think about brands, brands are myths, brand. The brand narrative is something that is made up. Yes, it could be based on a true story of whomever founded the brand.

08:04.54
Natalija Pavic
Mm-hmm.

08:07.31
Elizabeth Schmidt
But but if you think about the lore behind a brand, someone decided what that narrative is, you know, and the leaders continue to and the employees continue to perpetuate that narrative.

08:17.96
Elizabeth Schmidt
And so as a consumer and as a fan, we are attaching ourselves to myth when we become a fan of a brand. And so it really explores what that is, what that means, how people are connected to that.

08:29.66
Natalija Pavic
Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

08:30.36
Elizabeth Schmidt
and And how that in and of itself is is driving culture forward. There’s a phenomenal interview with Justin Breeden, who’s the head of marketing innovation at Walmart.

08:34.69
Natalija Pavic
yeah

08:40.52
Elizabeth Schmidt
there’s There’s a wonderful section on memes in general and what that means. There’s a wonderful section about the the brand Come and Go, which is hilarious.

08:52.52
Elizabeth Schmidt
And it’s 280 page book filled with essays poetry like journal entries, ah unique ways to engage with these different brands.

09:05.18
Natalija Pavic
Yeah. Yeah.

09:06.22
Elizabeth Schmidt
And and there’s some some Easter eggs and some um kind of hidden meanings.

09:11.30
Natalija Pavic
yeah

09:11.51
Elizabeth Schmidt
So if you’re in marketing and branding and and or if you’re a creative director or if you are involved in just the creative arts in any way, this is a book that you need.

09:23.75
Natalija Pavic
So, and let’s talk a little bit about that because myths are so, so important. um They’re important in being able to do communicate with people more than like, more than 200 individuals. like if you if you Like you can have a small circle of up to 200 individuals that you can possibly know on a first name basis and you can communicate with them individually, but anything beyond that, ah myths are really necessary to you know carry your message forward.

09:49.47
Elizabeth Schmidt
Mm-hmm.

09:49.96
Natalija Pavic
How do you think storytelling is changing? Because, You know, we’re seeing the sort of drop in importance of the website and we’re seeing the increase in importance of other mediums like social and we have marketplaces and we have all these other places where people can discover your brand, but these are not necessarily…

10:11.93
Natalija Pavic
mediums that the core brand owns. And so storytelling has always, from my opinion, um it’s been sort of fragmented from the perspective of like, how do we get that message across? And you know people will say, well, let’s buy ads, let’s do pop-up, let’s you know ah have an experience.

10:27.89
Natalija Pavic
And so there was all these different tactics, but as we continue to fragment, um what are some of the ways that brands can continue to tell their stories in the future?

10:39.10
Elizabeth Schmidt
I love this question. So one of the the terms that I mentioned earlier was multiplayer.

10:44.32
Natalija Pavic
Right.

10:44.49
Elizabeth Schmidt
And that’s, that’s something that really aligns itself with this concept. So brands creating their, their own narratives today. If you’re not paying attention to what, how your customers are co-creating with you, then you’re completely missing out because they’re the ones that are actually continuing that brand narrative.

11:03.48
Elizabeth Schmidt
They’re the ones driving word of mouth. They’re the ones that are creating content to present your brand to their networks and so on and so forth. So they’re, they’re co-creating.

11:14.64
Natalija Pavic
Right.

11:14.67
Elizabeth Schmidt
your brand with you, hence the multiplayer brand concept. And if you’re not creating an environment that encourages that, then you’re missing out on a key aspect of connecting with consumers and fans.

11:29.65
Elizabeth Schmidt
And and you know even just how you’re leveraging that content and how you’re integrating that co-created content into your brand narrative is also incredibly important.

11:40.39
Elizabeth Schmidt
Oftentimes we see fans that are that have better product innovation ideas than the brands themselves.

11:46.87
Natalija Pavic
Mm-hmm.

11:48.27
Elizabeth Schmidt
And so, you know, you need to sit in those comments. You need to really invest in community management across all of these touch points and platforms, whether they’re social or or ah things like Discord or or, you know, even Twitch and now Substack, you know, really paying attention to the commentary that your audience is is creating to better understand how they feel about your brand what they think about your brand, how they’re engaging with your brand and how they’re evolving your brand with or without you.

12:19.29
Natalija Pavic
Yeah, it’s it’s interesting because you know it means that you’re you don’t necessarily control the story completely and you shouldn’t, right?

12:24.98
Elizabeth Schmidt
Exactly. Exactly.

12:27.57
Natalija Pavic
Right, and you’ve already mentioned two examples. You mentioned the Disney example where where the fans were creating the pages, and you mentioned the Boo Boo example where the fans are um giving them long nails and accessorizing them.

12:39.72
Natalija Pavic
And so they’re already changing what that brand is and what that means and who they are, right? um And it’s interesting because, you know, if i I may be a brand and I may want my brand to be XYZ, and then I may be shocked or surprised by actually who’s wearing them.

12:54.38
Natalija Pavic
And I can think of a distinct example. oh it was like a long time ago. i won’t mention the retailer, but i was talking to a Canadian brand and I was um considered, we were talking about their target audience and they were like really focusing on people in their 20s and me being in my 30s. I was like, um so, you know, you also have another target audience, which is, which is the,

13:15.20
Natalija Pavic
ah You know, a little bit older woman who um wants to feel like wants the high waisted jeans that that’s what they had at the time who wants to like almost like relive the eighty s even as Gen Z and Gen Alpha are also reliving the 80s with her.

13:31.21
Elizabeth Schmidt
Mm-hmm.

13:32.38
Natalija Pavic
um And they were like, yeah, we know a lot of those people shop at our stores, but they at the time they hadn’t really thought about it. They hadn’t thought about targeting them. um And they were almost like, well, that’s not, you know, our brand is supposed to be young and sexy. And now you have this like new demographic that’s coming in and,

13:47.77
Natalija Pavic
um They stand for different things. They’re more practical, right? um And it’s interesting how ah brands can sort of evolve but also um thrive if they absorb and accept their fan base, right?

14:03.00
Elizabeth Schmidt
Yes.

14:03.13
Natalija Pavic
Because for them to alienate that fan base, then what’s the point? Then you don’t you’re not making stuff for more people. You’re making stuff for fewer people, right?

14:11.98
Elizabeth Schmidt
Yeah.

14:12.09
Natalija Pavic
I don’t have a question. It was just a comment. Yeah.

14:13.80
Elizabeth Schmidt
No, no, no. That’s a really great point. i have I have so many thoughts on that. One really glaring example that comes to mind is one of the shop talk conversations with was with the U.S. CEO of Zadegan Polter, luxury brand.

14:28.25
Natalija Pavic
Right.

14:28.52
Elizabeth Schmidt
And she was talking about how their audience, their customers are half of their customers are Gen Z, which was really surprising because you don’t imagine that Gen Z can afford a luxury brand.

14:37.27
Natalija Pavic
right

14:40.51
Elizabeth Schmidt
But the reason being is because their Gen X parents are buying them clothes. What they also noticed was because of that, they were gaining a significant amount of Gen X customers as well, who were the parents that were buying, you know, their kids clothes.

14:56.01
Elizabeth Schmidt
So they were, getting exposure to an audience that they didn’t realize they needed or wanted, you know, being Gen X, ah simply because of the purchase behavior of their prominent consumer base, which was a really exciting stat to to bear witness to and a perfect example of, you know, paying attention to to the shopping trends.

15:02.88
Natalija Pavic
Mm-hmm.

15:19.05
Elizabeth Schmidt
Another thing that that that that made me think of ah Consumers aside, there’s something that Future Commerce offers is ah we have a subscription offering. It’s called Future Commerce Plus, and it’s really for anyone in e-com and retail that that just wants additional content and really even richer and deeper thought leadership.

15:40.20
Elizabeth Schmidt
We also have a lot of products within that subscription that gives you access to things like our word of mouth index, which allows anyone to access phenomenal data.

15:46.84
Natalija Pavic
Mm-hmm.

15:49.45
Elizabeth Schmidt
We’re talking thousands of Shopify stores were analyzed. to really be able to determine what data is driving word of mouth in general and and how that is influencing purchase behavior. And so if you’re, if you want to understand trends, you need access to this tool, a new tool that that we’re dropping, which I’m so excited about is ah Field Notes.

16:12.70
Elizabeth Schmidt
And Field Notes is ah is essentially a retail scorecard where we worked with an expert who physically went into some specific retail locations in Manhattan, one of which is Skims, the other one is Swatch.

16:27.98
Elizabeth Schmidt
For now, we’re releasing a bunch, but those are those are the first two that were completed. And to really understand all of the unique touch points in walking into this in-person experience from sight to sound, to smell, to, you know, like what’s the first thing that you see and how are all of these things influencing you as a person, as you walk through this in-person brick and mortar store?

16:44.85
Natalija Pavic
Yeah. Right.

16:54.63
Elizabeth Schmidt
ah Is there tech integration, you know, is it, or is it all just like tactical product, you know, how are they leveraging other unique tools or innovations within the store? And so it just made me think about that, that shopping experience.

17:04.96
Natalija Pavic
yeah

17:08.93
Elizabeth Schmidt
and And how those things also influence people differently based on where you might be at in your life, based on how much exposure you’ve even had to a retail experience, or if you’re you predominantly shop online.

17:13.19
Natalija Pavic
right

17:16.59
Natalija Pavic
Right. right

17:21.88
Elizabeth Schmidt
I mean, all of these things are are things that people need to be mindful of, of how consumers are are experiencing a ah physical space when you walk into it.

17:33.83
Natalija Pavic
You know, I like this idea of, especially when we think about social, and i and i think when we think about the trend of commerce anywhere, or some people like to say the purchasification of anything anywhere, right?

17:44.42
Natalija Pavic
So being able to say, your point, get a brand impression in store, but then maybe make that purchase later in some other medium.

17:44.54
Elizabeth Schmidt
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

17:51.67
Natalija Pavic
um And we often think about um and when somebody is wearing something, right? And you have this experience where you’re like, wow, that’s an amazing shirt or short.

18:02.49
Natalija Pavic
What is that and where can I get that? And it’s not, that may not be a product placement. So that’s the sort of the best advertisement that you can get is that is a genuine choice that that influencer made to wear that um and they were not paid or they were not granted those things.

18:17.72
Natalija Pavic
And you are discovering new products through that experience. And what’s interesting is that we still don’t have the tech tools to do random product discovery in that manner. right We still haven’t figured out how to tag um products that are not listed, right products that are just um native in the wild, so to speak.

18:29.45
Elizabeth Schmidt
Yeah.

18:35.16
Natalija Pavic
um But I do feel like we’ll probably get there because I know that there’s tech out there that can make this possible. and And so it’s interesting because to your point of like fans influence and fans move the brand forward, what happens in a world where, you know, we’re taking e-commerce in that direction and now you have the ability to discover products, not only in traditional shopping mediums, but literally can take a picture of somebody walking on the street and figure it out.

19:03.33
Elizabeth Schmidt
Anywhere.

19:04.98
Natalija Pavic
Exactly. Yeah.

19:05.82
Elizabeth Schmidt
here

19:06.42
Natalija Pavic
So, I mean, that’s, that’s coming, which is very, very exciting.

19:10.18
Elizabeth Schmidt
Agreed. And if if these social platforms were smart and you heard it here first, but I’m sure someone else has said this before, so I don’t want to take credit for it.

19:20.98
Elizabeth Schmidt
There would be an integrated ai tool that as a user, if I’m uploading something, it would scan that content

19:24.70
Natalija Pavic
Yeah.

19:30.19
Natalija Pavic
Right.

19:30.38
Elizabeth Schmidt
for potential product placement based on whatever they were able to find on the internet of the internet that looked similar, and then allow that user before they upload to tag the product and allow that user to earn a commission on that tagged product.

19:33.13
Natalija Pavic
Right.

19:42.42
Natalija Pavic
Right.

19:45.61
Elizabeth Schmidt
And where they’re pulling it from could be determined by whatever backend deals they’re making with large you know ah retailers or systems that are significantly curating and aggregating commerce options.

20:02.42
Natalija Pavic
Right.

20:02.47
Elizabeth Schmidt
I’m not going to mention names, but you know, ah that would be, that would be incredible.

20:02.53
Natalija Pavic
Yeah. yeah

20:06.88
Elizabeth Schmidt
Or there could be like some unique auto visual tool that, that would be able to scan a post and then be able to recommend products. I don’t know why we’re not seeing this yet, but I do believe that we will, we will see this very soon, especially on Instagram.

20:20.24
Natalija Pavic
I, yeah, I think, I think the reason we’re not seeing it yet, ah frankly, because I still, i use, I’m a big user of Facebook marketplaces and I’m still shocked, right, that I have to give somebody cash.

20:28.79
Elizabeth Schmidt
same.

20:31.89
Natalija Pavic
I’m like, can’t we just, can’t you just add a buy button? Just like Facebook, come on, like add a buy button.

20:34.91
Elizabeth Schmidt
Oh,

20:36.93
Natalija Pavic
You know how much money you’re leaving on the table? um So I think it’s because ah media is not used to e-commerce. Because think about it. I was like watching some TikTok that was like, here’s here’s all the stuff that people in White Lotus wore.

20:50.32
Natalija Pavic
Here was all the like and would like, and they pinned them.

20:50.78
Elizabeth Schmidt
I love that.

20:52.53
Natalija Pavic
It was like this dress from this brand. And this is how much it is. And I was like, imagine if you were watching a show. Right. And you like paused it or you took a break or you could just say like, oh, I really love that.

20:58.79
Elizabeth Schmidt
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

21:05.41
Natalija Pavic
Where can I get that? Because there’s so many shows that are so stylistically in tune with their audience and you could have your moment of inspiration from that. You could buy that dress from that episode, you know. um So I think that there’s like media companies need to get in on the game and realize that Subscriptions are and ads are not the only revenue source.

21:24.45
Natalija Pavic
There’s also like the merch, which they, I’m sure if you, you know, if your company was bought by Disney, there’s so much merch opportunity that Disney isn’t even taking advantage of right now from their shows.

21:36.25
Elizabeth Schmidt
100%.

21:36.95
Natalija Pavic
So, yeah.

21:37.81
Elizabeth Schmidt
Yeah, I completely agree. and And even you know how that information information is shared when those new series series drops or new seasons drop, it’s not yet integrated into the streaming experience.

21:46.92
Natalija Pavic
Yeah.

21:51.21
Natalija Pavic
Right.

21:51.24
Elizabeth Schmidt
I have seen a few shows where in the intermission, because I don’t i pay extra to not have commercials on my streaming networks because I hate commercials in general, but…

21:54.42
Natalija Pavic
ah yeah

22:04.34
Elizabeth Schmidt
You’re still seeing commercial commercials that are owned by the network or part of the show, integrated into the show.

22:06.86
Natalija Pavic
Yes.

22:10.53
Natalija Pavic
Right.

22:11.86
Elizabeth Schmidt
And i so I have seen more shows have a QR code in between the breaks or at the end of the episode that says, you know, for for a list of products or outfits you’ve seen here, enjoy this QR code and and shop whatever.

22:25.35
Natalija Pavic
right

22:26.50
Elizabeth Schmidt
um Love Island does it.

22:29.47
Natalija Pavic
That’s amazing.

22:29.46
Elizabeth Schmidt
And…

22:29.87
Natalija Pavic
and That’s honestly the first step. The QR code is the first step. The second layer to this would be um use you’re watching it on your Apple TV. You’ve got your Apple wallet.

22:38.10
Elizabeth Schmidt
Yeah.

22:39.65
Natalija Pavic
Just add it to your cart and use your Apple wallet to buy it.

22:41.60
Elizabeth Schmidt
Instant. Yeah.

22:42.76
Natalija Pavic
Yeah. So that’s going to be the next level. um And it’s so funny because um this totally reminds me of an experience I had. Um, but quite frankly, I lost my train of thought.

22:56.08
Natalija Pavic
we’re going to continue this conversation. I bet you i’m going to remember later and I’ll come back to it. But, um, anyway, so let’s talk.

23:02.32
Elizabeth Schmidt
Allowed.

23:02.82
Natalija Pavic
Yeah. Uh, let’s talk about, um the, something that we talked earlier about, which was this idea of a fourth space.

23:13.10
Elizabeth Schmidt
Yes.

23:13.74
Natalija Pavic
Uh, yeah. So walk me through how you define a fourth space, because I think it’s relevant with fan creative content. So let’s define what that is.

23:22.33
Elizabeth Schmidt
So it’s funny, this term is actually trademarked by Eventbrite. And they just they just came out, well, not just, six months ago, because this was a report that they came out in January of 2025 about fourth spaces.

23:26.27
Natalija Pavic
Oh, okay.

23:33.74
Elizabeth Schmidt
And it’s really the the convergence of an internet community into an in-person community.

23:33.94
Natalija Pavic
Yeah.

23:41.93
Elizabeth Schmidt
And, and people gathering together surrounding a topic that they’re all very, really passionate about in person, but ultimately they are a digital community.

23:48.02
Natalija Pavic
Mm-hmm.

23:52.78
Elizabeth Schmidt
And so they were looking at the habits of these kinds of spaces and, and what that means. And it’s predominantly and enjoyed by younger generations, but, but we’re, so we’re still seeing millennials participate because they kind of sit across.

24:07.28
Elizabeth Schmidt
Cross-generationally, you know, some millennials are a little bit gen X and some are a little bit Gen Z.

24:08.85
Natalija Pavic
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

24:12.27
Elizabeth Schmidt
ah But it’s it’s a unique space that presents an exciting opportunity for brands to get involved in that is so far showing greater engagement than if they were to just work with influencers.

24:27.30
Elizabeth Schmidt
Because you have people that are so passionate about a particular subject that are all getting together in person and what do you get when you combine, you know, a few hundred people with passion, with direct contact with your brand?

24:41.16
Natalija Pavic
Mm-hmm.

24:41.56
Elizabeth Schmidt
You’re the, the, I mean, I hate using the word impressions, but if we’re looking at it from a, from a media impression standpoint, you’re getting more engagement and interaction in person than you would if you just worked with a micro influencer or even a macro influencer that is posting on their Instagram.

24:54.94
Natalija Pavic
Mm-hmm.

24:57.25
Elizabeth Schmidt
You know, the, the quality of, of interaction with your brand is far less because there is

24:57.63
Natalija Pavic
Right.

25:04.17
Elizabeth Schmidt
no in-person. It lacks that intimacy.

25:07.83
Natalija Pavic
Mm-hmm.

25:08.01
Elizabeth Schmidt
and And intimacy is something that I think a lot of people are unsure of how to cultivate still, brand intimacy.

25:15.36
Natalija Pavic
Interesting. Yeah.

25:17.04
Elizabeth Schmidt
And these in-person experiences can can really create those those moments.

25:23.55
Natalija Pavic
So, and it’s interesting that they um trademark for a space because, you know, if people are familiar with this idea of the first space being your home, the second space being your work or your school, so the other place where you spend most of your time.

25:36.24
Natalija Pavic
A third space is typically like a park or a library or public space where people meet. So, A four space, um sort of the way that Eventbrite defining it, is literally planned meetup, right, at a different location. And so that could be a meetup of like, say, your, you know, knitting, ah knitting and stories buddies or knitting and drinking at the local library, you know, or like a D&D group.

26:01.67
Natalija Pavic
Or, you know, if anybody’s interested in sponsoring my local barbecue, um um we’re organizing a community barbecue with everybody in the neighborhood we’re closing the street.

26:05.86
Elizabeth Schmidt
Thank

26:11.37
Natalija Pavic
And I think you’re right. Like there may not be an influencer there with a wide audience and you might only have access to 200 people. But if you sort of show up as a brand and you sponsor one of those events or you are present and you you provide something for those events, um you will target so very clearly those 200 people that have self-selected them.

26:30.68
Elizabeth Schmidt
you.

26:31.87
Natalija Pavic
into that group of ah hobbyists are passionate about XYZ topic. And it’s very, very clearly defined by the event. So um fascinating opportunity for brands.

26:40.26
Elizabeth Schmidt
Yeah. Yeah. And I kind of love how, you know, fourth spaces almost incorporate aspects of all the other spaces in a way.

26:49.37
Natalija Pavic
Yeah. Yeah.

26:50.55
Elizabeth Schmidt
And, you know, what do you get when you, when you have a fan community, a digital fan community and you put them all in person that, you know, these, these are, these are fans that are really passionate about a particular thing.

26:59.34
Natalija Pavic
Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

27:04.99
Natalija Pavic
Yeah.

27:05.30
Elizabeth Schmidt
it kind of reminds me of the lookalike contest, trend that we were seeing for a while, you know, the Timothee Chalamet one that was in New York and, and a few, a few others that, that we saw. And so it’s almost like fans of a particular actor and then, you know, folks getting together to just nerd out on other people who look like them.

27:23.86
Natalija Pavic
right

27:25.30
Elizabeth Schmidt
There was one thing that I just saw this morning that I thought was, was really amusing, which Hermes created a unique IRL experience just recently. it just opened today.

27:37.38
Elizabeth Schmidt
And it’s going on for the next 10 days and it’s a murder mystery.

27:41.40
Natalija Pavic
Oh.

27:42.43
Elizabeth Schmidt
And they just did, they created this gorgeous pop-up, like almost like museum level, museum quality, moment that you could walk through and engage with the brand, but there’s a murder mystery game.

27:57.74
Elizabeth Schmidt
So they gamified their brand.

27:58.38
Natalija Pavic
That’s so cool. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

27:59.88
Elizabeth Schmidt
I know. And so anybody anybody can go. i I don’t know if tickets are free or if you have to pay. I’m sure it’s going to sell out if if you have to reserve in advance. But what a unique idea from a luxury brand to take advantage of an IRL pop-up, almost like brick and mortar experience that’s gamified.

28:19.66
Elizabeth Schmidt
And there there’s something to be said about the future of commerce in gaming in a way.

28:25.16
Natalija Pavic
Yeah.

28:25.94
Elizabeth Schmidt
And that’s something that’s something that Justin Brayton actually said at our Visions conference that we had just last week and in New York at the Museum of Modern Art, because Walmart is doing incredible things with spatial right now, which is really exciting of you know integrating commerce moments inside ah inside of a game.

28:26.37
Natalija Pavic
Yeah.

28:31.70
Natalija Pavic
Yeah.

28:40.03
Natalija Pavic
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

28:46.39
Elizabeth Schmidt
And not a lot of brands are doing that right now. And, and so there’s, there’s something to be said about that also as the future of, of commerce.

28:55.93
Natalija Pavic
Yeah, um I definitely think there’s lots of potential. I mean, just even product placements in games. And games are are also tied to digital wallets. There’s so much opportunity there to collect payment, um shipping information.

29:07.40
Elizabeth Schmidt
Yeah.

29:08.46
Natalija Pavic
You have an account, right?

29:09.48
Elizabeth Schmidt
Exactly, exactly.

29:09.65
Natalija Pavic
So, yeah.

29:10.55
Elizabeth Schmidt
And we’ve seen a lot of that already. I mean, this is commerce is not new to gaming. This has been something that’s been going on for years, but it’s been predominantly digital products, not actual real tangible products that you can get delivered to your house from and a game interaction.

29:14.79
Natalija Pavic
Yeah.

29:18.05
Natalija Pavic
Right.

29:20.68
Natalija Pavic
Yeah.

29:23.12
Natalija Pavic
Right. Right.

29:25.58
Elizabeth Schmidt
Like that’s actually really cool.

29:25.95
Natalija Pavic
That could be like, it’s like, yeah oh, well, I thought I was buying a Birkin bag for my character, but today ah my doorstep, hu that’d be hilarious.

29:35.25
Elizabeth Schmidt
Oh, if only.

29:35.90
Natalija Pavic
ah Okay. So I did remember my thing that I was going to share with you.

29:38.34
Elizabeth Schmidt
Yes.

29:39.80
Natalija Pavic
was like, I was also listening to you, but also racking my brain. um So I think that there’s something to be said for brands that take that take a little bit of risk and with how their brand is represented because there’s a tendency to kind like clamp down and be like, no, we can only be shown XYZ way.

29:49.11
Elizabeth Schmidt
Yes.

29:55.82
Natalija Pavic
um Barbie is a great example, right? Like –

29:58.74
Elizabeth Schmidt
Mm-hmm.

30:00.36
Natalija Pavic
hiring the director they did and letting her run with these heavy existential themes was like a big risk for the brand but it had a massive payoff um and so similarly i was recently in the market for a car and we were looking at a minivan and we settled on the Honda Odyssey and then we randomly watched um Wolverine and um Deadpool and it wasn’t I, an unexpected Honda Odyssey product placement, which we in it, you know what, you should just, you should just watch the reel because I’m pretty sure it was not, I’m pretty sure they did it by accident like by accident.

30:27.75
Elizabeth Schmidt
Oh.

30:37.10
Natalija Pavic
Like I don’t think the brand contacted the show and was like, we want the minivan in your superhero movie. I’m pretty sure that somebody who is a writer just wanted to make a joke and they had the minivan.

30:48.43
Natalija Pavic
And so they like had it in these scenes where the two main characters found it as a car used car. And then they drove across this like wasteland to pick up a whole bunch of other superheroes. Meanwhile, having a ton of fight scenes in the car and it was very bloody.

31:05.45
Natalija Pavic
And I was like, there’s no way Honda signed up for this on purpose. But the funny part is the whole journey was like, look at how many people it can hold. And look at how long it lasts.

31:12.88
Elizabeth Schmidt
Right.

31:15.69
Natalija Pavic
And look at how practical it is. And I was like, this is a sign. I said this to my husband. and We have to buy this car.

31:21.06
Elizabeth Schmidt
That’s so funny.

31:23.07
Natalija Pavic
So the funniest product placements can happen. anywhere and and taking risks I think um is something brands have to.

31:28.38
Elizabeth Schmidt
Agreed.

31:29.28
Natalija Pavic
Yeah, relax about a little bit. um Okay, so on this comment um of you know how brands influence commerce, I think we talked about that um quite a bit um and you talked a little bit about finding that ah in in the edition. What are your thoughts on AI?

31:48.52
Elizabeth Schmidt
Oh, you know, i have so many thoughts on AI, but let me start here. And, and this is a bit polarizing because I just saw that a study was done, a Stanford study was done and the the results were just released.

32:04.82
Elizabeth Schmidt
I don’t, I don’t know how long ago they were released, but the internet knows me so well, my feeds are just perfectly aligned with all of the things I’m interested in. So it consistently feeds me information.

32:16.21
Elizabeth Schmidt
And, and I just witnessed a lot of thought leaders and scholars talking about this study of LLMs and.

32:25.08
Natalija Pavic
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

32:26.97
Elizabeth Schmidt
people who use LLMs and the reduction in brain activity for using LLMs for simple copywriting instead of writing it themselves. So this is in the context of, let’s say I’m a college student writing an essay and i and I give my AI tool a prompt and then it spits out most of my paper. Now I know like ethically, that is not okay because the tool is writing your paper and please don’t do this if you’re in college.

32:57.93
Elizabeth Schmidt
But but let’s be real, a lot of people are doing it. And they were saying that because of dot the simple narrative exercise that you could actually use real brain power for and you’re instead you using a tool to do it for you, you’re actually over time reducing your brain’s capability of doing that in the future.

33:16.19
Natalija Pavic
Huh.

33:17.74
Elizabeth Schmidt
So that was a little scary.

33:19.17
Natalija Pavic
ah

33:19.70
Elizabeth Schmidt
And so that’s that’s made me think a lot about it because you know we all use AI, whether it’s to analyze data or you know to help to format documents from from existing concepts and theories and and needs and whatnot. But when you’re using it just for a simple simplified writing, it’s not ideal apparently.

33:39.23
Elizabeth Schmidt
But I do still think that it’s a really important tool to just get rid of some of the minutiae tasks that end up taking a lot of time. you know, where, you know, that’s not the best use of my time to to crunch a bunch of numbers in an Excel spreadsheet.

33:48.52
Natalija Pavic
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

33:53.87
Elizabeth Schmidt
I can actually upload that spreadsheet of data to AI and it can immediately tell me the trends. And we love that. I do think that there’s exciting advances and we’re we’re actually having some sidebar conversations internally with some of our partners, which is really exciting about some some AI tools that they’re working on that I can’t mention, but are are really exciting to to see about the future of shopping as it relates to AI and and how it can actually improve upon the experience instead of, I don’t, how do i phrase this?

34:29.13
Elizabeth Schmidt
um

34:30.81
Natalija Pavic
Improve instead of replace some existing.

34:33.05
Elizabeth Schmidt
Yeah, yeah.

34:33.76
Natalija Pavic
Yeah.

34:33.93
Elizabeth Schmidt
You know, because i I don’t think that people are really thinking ah about innovation within these tools enough. there’s There’s more than just LLMs.

34:44.39
Elizabeth Schmidt
You know what I mean? Like there’s really unique experiences that can be created from just data curation components that can dramatically in influence commerce behavior.

34:54.96
Natalija Pavic
Right.

34:57.96
Natalija Pavic
Right.

34:58.64
Elizabeth Schmidt
So I think that there’s a lot of exciting things that we’ll we’ll see over the next few years. that’ll impact brand discovery, product discovery, suggestions, things of that nature.

35:06.23
Natalija Pavic
Yeah. Yeah.

35:08.79
Elizabeth Schmidt
And how fun would that be? you know And that’s why we’re also seeing AI agents just increased dramatically. And this was one of the topics that that was also discussed at our Visions conference where Daisy, the the edit chief editor-in-chief at DIRT, was talking about agents and how we are going to have to eventually start advertising and marketing with agents in mind instead of consumers because over time, agents will be the one that are doing the steps on behalf of their customer.

35:18.39
Natalija Pavic
yeah

35:43.79
Elizabeth Schmidt
And so the agents actually learn the preferences of the customer and the agents are then going on the internet and sourcing and curating whatever data the customer has prompted it to do. So we’re going to have to start thinking about how do we market to these agents to make sure that completely, completely.

35:58.19
Natalija Pavic
and yeah It’s a different world, honestly. Yeah.

36:02.14
Elizabeth Schmidt
It was it was really a genius thought process and and theory that I completely agree with and we’re already seeing, you know, these These AI systems, perplexity being one, is already surfacing product recommendations.

36:13.62
Elizabeth Schmidt
So we now have to think about how do we get into these systems? And different AI tools are already scrubbing data from different systems. Perplexity scrubs from Reddit a lot. you know We see Google’s Gemini tools scrub from various sources. ChatGPT scrubs from various sources.

36:30.91
Elizabeth Schmidt
And so you really have to think about where you’re showing up and make sure that you as a brand have an influence across multiple sources. And so all the more reason to you know consider and invest in earned media still, which is really important because that’s where you’re going to get placement in these sources that AI tools are scrubbing.

36:46.10
Natalija Pavic
Right.

36:49.34
Natalija Pavic
Right. That’s a good point. um Yeah. Earned media is is definitely going to be more proud of prevalent. And it’s interesting how we’re shifting from like the focus on SEO and Google is almost like our only channel to this multi-agent channel. Like it might not just be Gemini or ChatGPT, but it could be proprietary agents looking at information, you know.

37:09.62
Natalija Pavic
So there’s a ton of opportunity.

37:10.41
Elizabeth Schmidt
AIO.

37:11.21
Natalija Pavic
Yeah.

37:16.65
Elizabeth Schmidt
You heard it here first.

37:19.74
Elizabeth Schmidt
TM.

37:21.25
Natalija Pavic
Fantastic. Yeah, we’ll we’ll make sure to submit the trademark right after this podcast.

37:25.16
Elizabeth Schmidt
Perfect.

37:26.19
Natalija Pavic
Well, this has been really illuminating. Thank you so much for coming on and dropping some amazing knowledge.

37:31.85
Elizabeth Schmidt
Thank you for having me.

37:31.90
Natalija Pavic
um Give me a call to action. Where can people find Laura? Where can people find more of what you’re talking and writing about?

37:38.39
Elizabeth Schmidt
Yes, yes. So please head to shop.futurecommerce.com. You can see all of our printed journals there. We also have a secret candle that goes along with this journal that I made myself.

37:50.88
Natalija Pavic
okay.

37:51.09
Elizabeth Schmidt
And it’s very limited edition. We had a few available at our Visions Conference at MoMA in New York just this past week, and and a few are still available online. So if you want a candle to go with your book, which is just the ultimate coffee table moment,

38:04.47
Elizabeth Schmidt
ah please, you know, you shop, sign up for futurecommerce.com’s newsletter. it’s It’s filled with just profound information and a lot of wonderful thought leadership to help you just be better at your job.

38:17.99
Natalija Pavic
I’m definitely heading there after this conversation. So thank you again, Elizabeth, for joining me today.

38:22.75
Elizabeth Schmidt
Thank you. It’s been great.

38:24.42
Natalija Pavic
And to everyone else, until next time.